The discovery stage is a crucial part of the sales process. When conducted correctly, the discovery phase helps companies better understand the needs of their clients. The goal? To roll out products and product updates that solve their clients’ unique problems.
Still, many founders continue to make critical mistakes during the discovery phase. Why?
We sat down with sales-expert Rachel Mae to find out!
During this jam-packed discussion with ESL host Jonathan Fischer, Rachel dives deep into the discovery stage to explain why it’s so important, common mistakes tech founders make during the discovery stage, and how to avoid making the same mistakes yourself.
Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn for more engaging sales insights and discussions! Happy watching!
Meet Rachel Mae
Rachel is Chief Evangelist and General Manager of Training Certification/Licensing at a sales growth company that specializes in sales turnarounds, growth, coaching, process development, and compensation.
Check out the transcription of the conversation below!
Jonathan Fischer 0:04
All right, I've got the green light from the producers, we are ready to get started with today's episode. And that we definitely want to welcome all of you to the Evolve sales leader live and excited to have you with us today. Jumping right in, you know, any good sales process has multiple steps. But there's one step that above all really sets the table for good things to happen or not. And that step is discovery. Discovery done right allows you to find out everything you need to know to close the sale. Well, according to today's guest, most tech company founders get this step completely wrong, hindering their sales team's success and setting themselves up for costly and needless problems in the near future. And today's guest is Rachel May. Rachel is an expert business development sales professional and an internationally known trainer. She's the general manager of training, certification and licensing at a sales growth company, a highly regarded consulting firm that specializes in turnarounds, sales, growth, coaching, sales, process development, and more. In today's conversation, we're gonna be diving a lot deeper with Rachel into the discovery stage, find out how most tech company founders getting this wrong, why that matters, and just how to fix it. Rachel, fantastic to have you with us today. Welcome.
Rachel Mae 1:18
Thank you, Jonathan, you make me sound so fancy.
Jonathan Fischer 1:23
Well, we believe you have something pretty remarkable to say. And we're excited to have you and share your insights with our audience today. Before we jump into that just a little bit by way of background, if you would tell us, you know, give us a bit of your background in selling some of your bigger accomplishments and maybe describe in greater detail what you're doing right now.
Rachel Mae 1:44
Yeah, so I have pretty much sat in every single seat within a sales organization from individual contributor, frontline manager, you know, director level, VP level, but most of my career has been spent in enablement. And in training and coaching. And several years ago, I just stumbled I love reading, like all the sales books, I'm a big like, sales process methodology, nerd that way. And, and then all sudden, I read, you know, gap selling, and it just blew my mind. And I was at the time a director for Konica Minolta. And I was developing their, like sales curriculum for all of their sales team, I had about 300 sales reps that I was coaching and developing at that time. And I started to apply the principles, and it was life altering. But I quickly discovered it was really hard to master yourself. And so I decided that I was going to go to the master himself. And so I went back into that individual contributor role. And to really master a gap selling, which is largely rooted in discovery. And so I spend most of my time now consulting with tech companies all over the world, generally, in the early stages to maybe like series D, or Series C would be the, like, sweet spot. And, and so I'm excited to talk about, like how this plays out, and how you can prevent some of the challenges that I see our clients having.
Jonathan Fischer 3:23
Yeah, great. Well, I mean, you make a pretty bold claim that most tech company founders are getting this step completely wrong. And if you would describe what what are they doing that so wrong? And and maybe tell us why you think that that's happening?
Rachel Mae 3:38
Yeah, so. So I guess it is a bold statement. But it's a true statement. It's a hill, I'm willing to die on, because I see it every single day. What happens is, you know, when you're a founder, you're out and you're hitting the pavement every day and you're selling your idea. You're selling yourself, you're selling your product and what it's going to do and whatever space that you are selling into, and you're trying to raise dollars, right, and you're trying to get people to jump on your ship and want to be a part of your mission. And what happens is, generally that means there's a lot of pitching, a lot of pitching, it's pretty much all pitching. And you build these pretty decks. And you get really like attached to your slides. Like sometimes I have to, like pry them out of my founders, like cold dead hands kind of situation. Like they love their dogs. And so they're pitching and they're pitching everywhere. And then they bring on kind of their first couple of salespeople. And what are those salespeople do? They duplicate what that founder is doing? And it's worked for the founder to sell what they're selling, which is their idea and their product to to fundraise, right? But that's Not the salespersons job, the salesperson is selling the product to the customer. And those are two very different sales cycles and sales processes. And so they start to duplicate this pitching this deck thing. And, and it sets up the first salespeople the first head of sales, up for failure. And it creates a foundation, a product centric selling, that lingers for years and duplicate itself, like like Gremlins after midnight. And then years later, you run out of early adopters, sometimes in the beginning, right, so early adopters, people who just get it, and you could just show him your thing. And they're like, man, I've been waiting for this my whole life. Right, and you think we're doing really well, the sales process is working really well, because these people are buying it, the people who already know they have a problem, and are already just like, Please, somebody fix this for me. But you've run out of those people quite quickly. And real sales is getting the people who don't know they have a problem. And don't understand how it's impacting them don't understand why they need to change, don't think they need to change, already have something in place. That's where the real sales come in. So when that moment hits, boom, the whole thing comes to a grinding halt. Now we have a whole sales organization that's built on product pitching, and they don't know how to do discovery. And then you have to hire people like us to come in and fix it for you and change all of those habits.
Jonathan Fischer 6:40
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it takes a special kind of person to found a company. And usually this is an individual, a lot of force of personality, they're very smart. They're very passionate about what they're doing. And that can carry you a long way in business, a lot of folks will just catch your passion and want to jump in and give you a shot based on that. Obviously, there has to be a business case for it. But that does a lot of the poll. And I can definitely see, I've seen that as well, in my own career where the founders process isn't really a process. It's more of their personality that's making that happen. Right. And and then they're wondering why there's not the same connecting of dots for their sales team, I think you make an awful lot of sense with that. Now, a couple things I want to unpack and what you've just said, Now a great, a great deck could be a great help to selling right, they can tell the story very effectively. What's the deal there? Like? You mentioned founders being a little overly attached. Tell us more about that. And what are their what are their issues are there with that form of presentation?
Rachel Mae 7:41
Sales isn't presentations, sales is conversations. And so the idea that using a deck is selling and and walking them through this story. Well, whose story is that?
Jonathan Fischer 7:59
Yeah, it's your story. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's your
Rachel Mae 8:02
story. Yeah. Right. It's not the customer story. No. And the reality situation is, the customer doesn't give a shit. Where, yeah, right. They don't care, they care about them, they care about their problems. So if you have to use a debt to sell, you don't know how to sell. And I know that's a very like bold statement. But it's just the reality because it's a crutch. Because you don't know how to have a real business conversation with that prospect. And then, like I said, the founders, they have the business acumen, generally, to go off of the script to go off of the deck, right to not use the deck as their their crutch. But the salespeople do you not have that same business acumen. And so they just end up pitching and telling a story about the company. And that's not selling.
Jonathan Fischer 9:06
Right, that makes a lot of sense. And the target audience for those early pitch decks is probably also not the same. Would you agree?
Rachel Mae 9:17
Jonathan Fischer 9:19
Why do you think founders get this wrong? I will, as we already agreed, I mean, he's just some smart men and women, what are they missing?
Rachel Mae 9:27
Well, first of all, it's not just founders who get this wrong, okay. It's the majority of sales leaders and sales people that get this wrong. And so it's, it's kind of like you know, how when we make cold calls, and you know that the first thing that you should never be saying is something along the lines of, Hey, Jonathan, how are you today? Right, like you know that that sucks. Every single time you have received a phone call in your life. It is probably still started off with Jonathan, how are you today? And so it's like this instinct that we're like, mimicking bad selling, when we become sellers, because it's just all that we've ever seen. And so this is really part of that, right? Like, there's been this idea for decades that pitching and closing and presenting is selling. But selling is. And this is where like, fundamentally why people get it wrong. Selling is diagnosing, not presenting. So selling is you, Jonathan, come to me, and you have a problem. And my job as a seller, is to find out, does that problem say, let's say we're talking about like tech founders here. So typically, you're selling what you're selling a tool. So you come to me, Jonathan, you have a broken tool, or you don't have a tool, and because of that you can't do a thing. Or you can't do a thing effectively, right? And so we get like really hung up on. Okay, well, they got this problem, and I can fix this problem, this thing. But selling is helping you Jonathan, if I'm your salesperson to understand, is that broken tool or lack of a tool, causing a business problem for you? That is so impactful, so big, that it warrants the full cost of you making a change? And that's not just money. Right? Right. That's, that's time and effort and your personal brands and, and money. And, you know, it might just sometimes making the change will will slow down your business in order to speed it up later, right? Is it worth risk, the full cost. And so selling is me diagnosing everything that's going on in your current state. And really understanding how this technical process broken to a problem is causing a business impact problem that warrants you needing to make a change, and diagnosing that for you, and then telling you, okay, here's the full story of your current state. Here's what's going to happen if you don't change, here's what's going to happen if you do change. And here are the things you need to consider when deciding what kind of change you're going to make. Whether it ever involves doing business with me or not. So it's helping it's influencing this decision to change and then influencing the decision to change to you, if that's the right decision for them. Telling us
Jonathan Fischer 13:01
I love that because you're talking about really sitting on their side of the table, and truly consultative ly selling with that words, I think loss of this meeting, every salesperson calls themselves a consultant now. But the original concept there is that that you really are putting their best interests front and center and what you're really doing in your conversations, whiteboarding out some better scenarios for them that actually solve some Phillip problems, maybe even explicate some problems, they're not fully aware that they have or at least not as deeply as they exist. So I love what you're talking about there. So what are some of the key ways that you can do that? Like what what is the tact was the tactical piece to to get there because that it's great to talk about in concept. But, you know, I can see an awful lot of people who have good personality they're committed to selling and they can read a script. But that sounds like maybe a bigger thing than they're ready to take on how can a sales professional really grappled with this? How can a leader help her team do that?
Rachel Mae 13:59
Yeah, well, if it's too big of a thing for you to take on, and you should probably choose another profession, because this is the job. I love it. So, so foundationally here's where it begins. And I think as as sales leaders and as founders and especially at the early stage, if you can get this right, this is this is huge. So it starts with the business acumen piece. So it starts with understanding and kind of walking through. Okay, broken tool broken process. I sell to well, let's just go you right, let's just go with your organization. So who's your ICP? Typically? It's gonna be a lot of them. Yeah. Well, I
Jonathan Fischer 14:47
mean, we yeah, we can serve a lot of companies, but probably when we have our most focused on is going to be venture funded, you know, business to business companies that just like you're talking about, they have either a solution in terms of services, maybe it's a software as a service. Something like this, like you said, it's a thing that's that thinks is a thing, right? That is going to be our main target. And they, you know, they're, they're, they're elbowing their way into a very crowded space to try to get their message heard and create very fast results for their investors. That's our target. That's our ICP
Rachel Mae 15:17
broken, what is the broken tool or process or tool that they don't have a process that they don't have that you provide for them?
Jonathan Fischer 15:26
Well, well, for us, we were talent solutions, that's what we do is Overpass, but our clients, it can be, it can run the gamut. You know, this could be you know, versions of CRM, software, business management software, it could be different kinds of business services, it runs the whole gamut. It really does. So,
Rachel Mae 15:41
so let's say you, though, let's see overpass. Okay. Okay, we're on the spot. Yep. Yep. What is the broken tool? What is the broken process that you fix for those folks?
Jonathan Fischer 15:53
Well, there's a gap between how quickly they effectively build a team, a build team of effective professionals, I should say, in terms of time and cost, and where they need to go, they've got some KPIs that they need to hit, they need to hit it within a certain timeframe. And to gather those people, it is extremely expensive. Now you think in this space, we're talking, you know, eight figure nine figure annual revenues are the other targets, but they have to do it on as thin a margin as they as they can. They really, they really have to make it happen on, you know, old school, you know, Wall Street, basically make it happen with nothing, right. So if it's a low cost solution that can get you high quality members of your team quickly, there's a real value proposition there. And that's what overpass does offer. By the way, today's session was not not a preachy session about Overpass, but Rachel, you put me on the spot to tell your met your story. So I do
Rachel Mae 16:43
think it's really like when teaching, it's really important to like, take things out of conceptual, right. So, okay, so the problem that you're solving, if I'm understanding for these folks, is they need talent, they need people that they can't afford,
Jonathan Fischer 17:00
well, that they don't in order to it's going to put undue pressure on them to do it. Yeah, I mean, you're talking multiple 10s of 1000s of dollars, and generally speaking, you know, anywhere from 45 days, or even longer to really get some decent people in, depending on how your process is structured. And that's, that's considered probably fast. We could do it in four to five days, and at a very small fraction of that cost, and remain an ongoing partner, as a talent solution for our users. So it's pretty fantastic value proposition. But like so many other SaaS companies, people don't don't know us, they don't know who we are just yet.
Rachel Mae 17:36
Right? Right. Absolutely. So okay, so, so I'm one of these, like, tech founders, and I need, like a marketing person. And I need, like a head of sales or someone to do sales for me. And, you know, I can't I don't know where to find them. I don't have the resources to recruit them. I don't necessarily even have like the money as much money as I need to get the kind of talent that I need to what to, to hit what my revenue target by November that I need in order to successfully raise my next do execute on my next fundraise, and I want to earn and I want that fundraise, I want to hit $10 million. But I need to show that x, y and z has happened in order to to raise that $10 million. And if I don't raise that $10 million, what's going to happen? Well, I could go out of business, I could run out of money, I could not be able to develop my product in the way I need to in order to meet the whatever that next goal is, right? Okay. So as a leader, what you have to do is take your people from, I help people get the people that they need, within the budget that they can afford, faster, better, whatever, and get them to, I make sure that you are going to hit your fundraising goal next March. So that you can XYZ or so that you don't go out of business. And you've got to teach your people what those business what the business problem is, and take them out of that technical process problem that you solve, and help them to have the business acumen to have this conversation and not this conversation. Because people do not buy to fix the broken tool they buy to hit their next fundraising goal. Yeah, love it. A lot of most salespeople can't have that conversation. And so what we do is we like really like founders create a foundation around this, where if you're a salesperson, or if you're a sales leader, if you're a founder, we call this a problem identification chart. And so we just start mapping out, what's the technical problem? If that technical problem exists? What's the impact of that? And if that impact exists, like, you know, what's the business problem, that this is all created. And then everything, all of your messaging, all of your questioning within discovery lives on that foundation. But if you don't have that foundation built out for your people, or you don't know it yourself, then that's where everybody's gonna default to the easier thing which is staying in the technical problem that you fix, you're not getting to the business problem.
Jonathan Fischer 20:57
I love that, I'm going to ask you a few more technical or tactical questions for how the sales professional can really activate that process that you just described. But I want to give a friendly reminder to our audience, and we have folks coming from the Philippines, we have folks in South Africa, we got folks here in North America. So it's a pretty cool group we got today. I think they're mesmerized listening to you, Rachel may because I don't see questions yet. So guys, hit me with your questions, send them in here in the comments. And we're gonna get your real time answers from our expert of the day, Rachel May. So Rachel, as our folks are beginning to think about what they would like to go deeper on ask their questions of you. I want to ask mine, which is, so I love what you're saying it makes all the sense in the world. And it makes me want to get the overpass team in the hot seat with you. What are some of the tactical things that our men and women can do to get into a better discovery conversation? Because really what you're talking about, you've really, I think, laid the groundwork for why I need to do a better job of discovery, right? I need to know more about what are those felt pain points, those those things that are really pressuring my prospect that and I can solve that pressure for them. Those are some areas that people don't just blurt out typically, even if they like you and trust you, to a certain extent, it takes a certain skill, it takes a certain understanding of how to guide the conversation to get there, in my experience, what's your advice on that? What are some key, you know, good tools and approaches that people can take to to uncover those pains.
Rachel Mae 22:28
So I think what you're what I hear a part of in your conversation that I want to earn your question that I want to address is that one of the reasons this is so difficult, there's two reasons it's difficult. Number one, is you have to have the business acumen. Right. So you have to understand, we have to be able to quickly understand your prospects business and your prospects customer in order to execute on this. Now, I can tell you really simply, I spent years in like IT services over at like konica, Minolta and Xerox. And one thing that it makes us like difficult if you sell into like one space, then it's pretty easy. Like master that space is right here, like science class, like multiple vert, like you are right Overpass, there's like multiple verticals like all sorts of different founders in different spaces. And it's challenging to be able to understand like their business, and their customer and the needs of their customer quite quickly. So I spend a ton of time as an individual contributor doing that. And what I mean by that is I'm literally Googling, if I'm meeting with like a manufacturing plant a cell manufacturing tool, right? I am like googling everything about that business environment. And I do that really simply by being like, what are the top challenges in semiconductor manufacturing? What are the business challenges? What the technical challenges, what are the right I'm like learning everything about that in like giving myself a crash course. Before I'm meeting with with clients, and most salespeople, you're lucky if they like, go to a website and look at like what they do. Right? Right.
Jonathan Fischer 24:20
Rachel Mae 24:23
right, you can have like the conviction to like understand your clients visit, if you don't already know you need to know before you ever go and speak to them. So number one is that business acumen piece, because otherwise you're not going to be able to execute. I think number two, and I kind of hear this and what you're saying is that these fear factor, right? So this fear that if we start asking hard questions that are invasive, that we are going to offend that we're going to turn off that people don't want to tell us and I it's just fundamentally not True. Nice. Your Prospects are not going to be offended. If you ask them the tough questions that are going to help them, do you know what offends them? You asking a bunch of crap questions that are only built to qualify, right give you information that tells you if you can sell to them or not, and, and are wasted time to them and don't really help them. That's offensive. But me asking you a question like, Hey, you come to me for sales training. And I go, Jonathan, what is the demo conversion rate for your sales team today? And if you don't want to answer that question, for me,
Jonathan Fischer 25:49
I can help you. Yeah, right. Right. Then move on. Right, that that's maybe they've done you a favor at that point? Yeah, you can't like
Rachel Mae 25:59
you can't play baseball with someone, if you like, throw a ball at them. And they just like, sit there and watch it, like you're not playing ball, right, you both got to be playing ball. So one of the things I do to soften this up, is I just tell people, the beginning, I'll say, hey, my sales process is probably a lot different than what you're used to experiencing. And that's because most salespeople think their job is to sell you something. And I understand that that is actually not my job. So my job today in our conversation is that you walk out knowing the full scope of what's going on in this area of your business, how it's really impacting you. And if you should change if the cost of change is larger or smaller than doing nothing at all. And that you also walk away understanding that like what criteria you should be using and evaluating what you should change to whether you ever do business with me or not. So you're going to notice that I asked a lot, like, My questions are really different. Just go along with me, because at the end, you're gonna be really grateful that we had this conversation, and you're gonna walk away feeling like this was time well spent. No matter if we ever do business. Does that sound fair?
Jonathan Fischer 27:16
That sounds more than fair. Right? Yeah.
Rachel Mae 27:19
Right. Like people gonna be like, yes, we used up.
Jonathan Fischer 27:23
Yeah, yeah, you've settled, you settled in an unknown. Basically, you've sold the conversation, right? You've laid out a reason why it is a value to them to take a few minutes be disclosed, because they have something to expect in return for that in transactionally. And that's fair. That's how human relationships work. I love that. I love that answer. And that's something anyone can do, if they're willing is just, hey, this is why I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions. Lay it out there. Do you think that behind that there's also something in in terms of intent? You know, humans are amazing, amazingly intuitive beings, and we can just tell where someone's coming from, when it comes to their intent? And if I'm not really putting the welfare of the other person first, or if I am, do you feel like that also comes across and if that plays a key role?
Rachel Mae 28:09
Absolutely. And I think we do a disservice if we minimize this piece for the salesperson themselves. Because this is really hard, detaching yourself from the outcome is really hard to do. I, you know, when the pressure is on, when you have a number to hit, when you when you need to get another deal when you when you you know, when leadership is like on you to close, close, close, close, close, it's really hard to internally make sure that your mindset does not succumb to that. And that your mindset is like, my job is not to do that. That is not my job. And to to you know, and I sometimes like when I'm getting on a sales call with a prospect, like I'm giving myself like affirmation beforehand, and I'm like, my job is to find out what's going on and help them to know if they should change or not. And why and what will happen if they don't. And that's my job. Like I remind myself to put myself in that place. And I gotta tell you like, Jonathan, it feels so much better on your soul to sell this way. Not only do you win more and clients win more but it like feel so much better on your soul.
Jonathan Fischer 29:30
If you feel like that's part of that is because you're being more disclosed like there's an element of, of almost artifice almost like there's it's not as honest as it could be in law selling. And this just clears the air. It's utterly honest. And it's aboveboard you like is that part of it? You think and if so, what else? What Why is it better on the soul? I like that a lot.
Rachel Mae 29:54
I mean, if you ask most people why they went into sales, they will tell you that it's because they want to help people. I mean, when I, when I that's the number one answer I get is they want to help people. Sure. And in selling this way helps people whether they ever buy from you or not they walk away better for have interacting with you, like you're selling in a way where it's like you get on and you ask a few questions. And then you're like, can you see my screen? And you're putting on the deck, and you're walking through your little demo and showing them a little thing? Right? Like, you're, you're saying, whatever it is, yourself, there is no way that it is the right choice right now for most, or all of the people. But that's just not true. Sure. And so if you're selling and you're like, I don't really know, if they should buy it or not, I don't really know how it's going to impact them. And I don't really know, if it's going to make a difference and fix all their problems. You know, I think it will, my product is pretty awesome. But I don't really know, but that really doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel like helping that feels like self serving, right. And it feels like stress that feels like stress and anxiety.
Jonathan Fischer 31:08
Yeah, I like that. And you want to feel like you can talk to that client later on. And they're gonna be happy to hear from you. If you seem to at the store, right? They'll smile at you that it's a good feeling. I love what you're bringing here, Rachel. So by way of questions, so some of our we have different audience members, I've seen it for more than one. So I'm just gonna throw it out there. Are there some questions that you should kind of have in mind? Like, do you have a list that you draw from, you know, what you're talking about isn't something that sounds like it's overly scripted. So we'll say that at the outset. But But given that that's the case, still, there probably are some good stock questions that you should kind of have and make sure that you've kind of covered the ground. Would you mind like, what what do you recommend? Or do you? Do you kind of have a stock set of questions you use in discovery?
Rachel Mae 31:55
Um, I do not have a stock set of questions. Because everything, every conversation is different, and every client is different. Wouldn't it be nice, you know, I think that's actually where we kind of go wrong, is that we, we especially enablement people, right, they're like, because reps ask for this. Can I have a question? Can I have the questions to ask? Right? But it's, you know, there is no shortcut. This is about learning how to think and how to think differently. And so it's not about quest, like having some sort of template of questions. But here's where I would start, if I'm creating my own questions. Instead of making a list of questions, make a list of First of all, like I said before, and you can actually go to our website, you can download the problem identification chart for free, like, it's, it's there. So I would start there, and I would, and you don't have to use the charts, just an Excel spreadsheet, but I would start with like, what is it? You know, what are those technical process problems you solve? What are the business problems that you solve? And when you get to the business problems, I mean, you think of them like a disease, okay. Like, you know, the business problem is diabetes. Okay. So I want you to think of it like a disease and and so what does that disease within your organism that your clients, organization? Maybe it's like, you know, not heading their quarterly revenue number or something, right. What are the symptoms, that that business problem exists? Okay, what are the symptoms of the disease? Okay, is this make it? Is this tracking? No, I
Jonathan Fischer 33:44
like it. I just tracking Sure.
Rachel Mae 33:46
Yeah. So So what are the symptoms of that, like? That those problems exist? What are the problems? What are the symptoms of the problems? And then, like the symptoms or collect, what do you need to know? Make a list of what do you need to know, to know that this business problem exists? Because you can't ask great questions, like a lot of times, especially when we first start teaching like gap sellers. They just kind of ask random questions all over the place. Because they really don't know what they're looking for. So it's about figuring out what are you looking for? So when I go to the doctor, and I'm like, you know, hey, I'm having headaches all the time. What is that doctor do? She starts being like, okay, like, where is the headache? What does you know? What, how often does it happen in a day like you change your eating habits, blah, blah, blah, she runs a bunch of like, blood tests and you know, she looks in your ears right? Whenever that kind of like processes. She asked a lot of questions about like the symptoms, right? And then she takes all of that information, all the those tests And she gives me a diagnosis. And then she gives me a prescription or like what I need to do to fix it. So, if you're the doctor and someone is coming to you, and they go, You know what, like, I, I am not hitting like my, you know, fundraising goals or I'm not hitting my revenue targets, then you need to know like, Okay, what? What's going on? What are the symptoms that this like root cause over here is what's causing it? So, you know, it starts with figuring out what do you need to know. And once you figure out what you need to know to diagnose, the questions will come.
Jonathan Fischer 35:38
will love it? Well, we've had such a fantastic conversation the time has absolutely flown by Rachael May, we're gonna definitely put some of the details in our show notes. What what are some recommendations you would give to our audience by way of maybe books that could read or other resources they may take advantage of, to go deeper on this topic?
Rachel Mae 35:57
Well, on this book right here, first of all, so I would definitely start there. And then of course we have you can follow me I post constantly about you know how to execute on this. And you can follow Keenan he does as well, right? The the author of gap selling. So we all speak to this all the time. You can also go to our website, sales, green growth company.com. And we have tons of like resources, free things that you can download tools that you can choose to try and execute and you can always reach out to me if you have any questions or need some help.
Jonathan Fischer 36:42
All right, well, sounds good. Well, folks, check out Rachel may on LinkedIn, take advantage of those resources there. And take this thing deeper discovery is such a key to so many good things happening in your your sales results and in your organization. Right you may thanks so much for joining us for today's live episode.
Rachel Mae 37:01
Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.