Customer relationship management (CRM) tools are thought to be technical, helping salespeople collect data and give reports to c-suite executives. However, for a CRM to reach its full potential, you actually need to start with something more aspirational: your vision for the tool.
That vision actually starts with your end users, not your leaders.
Afterall, it’s your end users who will be using your CRM day in and day out as they interface with clients and try to make sales as efficiently and effectively as possible.
On this episode of Evolved Sales LIVE, host Jonathan Fischer sits down with Anshul Verma, who is the founder of Cynoteck, a CRM consulting firm, to discuss the state of CRMs and how to maximize their potential in your organization.
Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn for more engaging sales insights and discussions! Happy watching!
Ansul Verma is an IT Veteran with 19 years of experience in IT analysis and implementation. He is the founder of Cynoteck, a company focused on helping businesses reimagine how they use Salesforce, and the co-author of Apex Design Patterns. Ansul also holds 16 Salesforce Certifications.
Check out the transcription of this webinar episode below!
Jonathan Fischer: [00:00:00] Thanks for joining us. I'm Jonathan Fisher. Very few companies fully maximize their tech stack, especially their C R M. Is the cost of that. What could be gained by fixing that and making some adjustments, whether minor or major. Well, the guest we have with us today is the perfect man to help us fill those gaps we have with us.
Anshul Verma. He's actually the founder of Cynoteck, a company and a firm that is focused on helping businesses maximize their Salesforce usage. Sho, we're great. Grateful to have you on the show today. Welcome to the program. Thanks.
Anshul Verma: Thanks for having me.
Jonathan Fischer: Absolutely. I mean, you, your firm is focused on helping businesses maximize the use of the World's first software as a service Salesforce.
But you come to us with knowledge about CRMs in general. Maybe the best place to start off with, you've seen the good and bad, the Ugly. What are some of the ways that most companies are missing it when it comes to their use of C R M?
Anshul Verma: Yeah. Jonathan I think that's a very wide question. There are various spots to it in total.
I would say there are various ways in which you can approach that answer to that. And it depends on organization to organization. So if I may, I would say at a very high level, I break it down into small pieces. The first and foremost I would say is the vision and strategy, which led to, and which should drive the whole CRM solution or CRM approach of the organization.
Now if I talk about vision and strategy, we always think about some leaders sitting in a room or leaders sitting in a room and discussing that. That is part of the vision, but we need to look at it from top to bottom. There has to be a clear vision in terms of what we want to achieve and how we will achieve that.
The more gap there is between these two points the fa hazy your vision would be, and the more chances of your CRM is going to fail will increase. Another point I would add in that would be that when you're designing the [00:02:00] strategy, we should design this CRM approach with the end user in mind.
A lot of times we have seen that CRMs are designed for the leaders, for CEOs for executives as they would like to see the outcome. But that will only give us the end result. Maybe a report or a dashboard. But the actual outcome, the people who are using the system in and out are the actual users, which wherein the strategy, the system should be created around them so they can get the maximum value out of it.
Take a pause if you have any questions.
Jonathan Fischer: Yeah. Well I think it's really interesting, you, you start with vision and strategy. I think a lot of, well probably most people just think well does, isn't that self-evident? I mean, I'm just trying to, you know, track my context and a contacts manage pipeline and, you know, assign some forecasting.
I mean, it's pretty basic what we do. What do you talk about Vision and like, why do I even need that? Maybe you could help us with that.
Anshul Verma: No, that's a great point. Yeah, on the surface it looks like it's pretty cut out. We go with sales, we just want sales pipeline sales forecasting, we're done with that.
But if you look at the overall value of what CRM brings to the table, it could have been a right answer 15 years back. But when we look at today's customer engagement from different standpoint, be it sales, be marketing, there are lots and lots of things happening behind the scenes. Be it your patients, how you're generating different providing different discounts, and all those factors come in as part of C M and all those processes have to be baked in as part of your CRM strategy because the more you can imagine it is, the more siloed your CRM is as part of your overall business process, the lesser the value and utilization you'll get out of it.
So the more engrossed your CRM is as part of your business strategy is part of your execution, the much better chances of there are more chances to get value out of it.
Jonathan Fischer: So, would you say that there is a, an r o I that's being missed? Is there is even, are there even some hard costs? So [00:04:00] if we just jump in, sorry.
Using it a normal way, talk to us about sort of the profit loss issues that, that come into play with that.
Anshul Verma: Yeah, there, I would say not just r do I link to that? There's definitely the you can say revenue optimization that you bring as part of CMM implementation, but there are additional avenues where you can increase your revenue altogether, not just by the current sales, but you can also look at opportunities like upselling or cross-selling, which are often lost when we look at a very basic we can say CRM strategy or implementation.
And that's where my point was that. So lot. Lot of times we have seen that CRM strategies are not really driven by business teams a lot of times by IT teams wherein they miss the mark. However, if CRM is driven by the sales strategy, by the business strategy, which are defining like how they want to use it, what they want to attain as an outcome, a much better outcome.
So it can, in this case, be enabler, but the strategy has to be driven from business end owners.
Jonathan Fischer: So that, that's a very common divide, you know, the technical people inside of a company from the business development people. So there are probably some recommendations you could make about getting everyone on those two teams to be working from the same playbook. What are, what would be some of your input on that front?
Anshul Verma: Yeah. I would say the way we have seen it work better for a lot of organizations of different sizes for that matter, is we. Start off first with the high level, you can say vision of what we want to accomplish. That's at the leadership level. We define some high level objectives. Let's say we want to increase our revenue.
We want to increase our customer experience, and we want to put that into a measurable you can say units. How do we want to measure the outcome or success of this whole engagement? Then we work with the management team where we involve the business managers, understand their problems, their suggestions, and make them as part of the execution model.
And that's where it, that is now ready to be [00:06:00] taken up to the IT team where we analysis can be enabled with the help of technology. So this partnership is very important where we start off from top two, bottom and a whole system or the process new system gets evolved.
Jonathan Fischer: So, what if you're already moving forward from whatever you did with your CRM from five years ago, is there a, do you recommend ways to kinda get everyone on your team to push a big refresh button?
Anshul Verma: Yeah, I would say there's no, no civil bullet for that. There, there are situations where that happens where CRM was like a silver bullet implemented five years back, and now it's a long forgotten story.
People are using it, but. Now it's not up to date, it's not maintained. My recommendation in this case would be, again, going back to the strategy, creating a CRM strategy and how you want to not just bring it up to date based and align it closer to the business operations, but how can you keep it relevant going forward?
And that is basically one of my points is that it's not just time, it's also about how are you going to keep it relevant. Business landscape is changing every day. Our customers are changing their expectations. Your competitors are changing the way business is done, so you can't be frozen in time in terms of how you go to market, how do you generate your quotations?
How do you price your products and services? That has to change based on this changing dynamics, and you need to keep your CRM relevant to that. Another thing I would add in there is that there is one thing where we are saying we are doing A, B, C, D and getting X as an outcome out of it. But there's always an opportunity to enhance and improve your operations.
That's where you need to evolve. Organization your IT and business needs to partner together to understand what are the continuous improvement areas? What are the areas where probably my salespeople are spending more time, or my customer service is spending more time. Or the areas where we are getting lot of errors, lot of you can say [00:08:00] repetitive work that can be automated or that can be removed from the equation altogether.
So that's a lot of areas that need to be worked upon, but in nutshell, I would say the. Strategy of that, the engagement strategy between business and it is instrumental in this case, and that strategy has to be not just set in stone for the current time. It has to be something that, as you can say includes the incremental improvement that are supposed to come in.
Jonathan Fischer: Well, so you've outlined several key areas where I think there is missed opportunity. Sounds like, on schul where there's under utilization of existing features there's a lack of a, an overall strategic use of this. It is used very tactically. Yeah. And typically, It can be very dated in many companies.
Well, let's talk about what we should be doing with our CRMs. So if we're gonna start with vision and strategy, let's dig a little deeper into that. What's that look like if it's done the right way?
Anshul Verma: I would say a very high level, a vision strategy, done right way, you'll be able to map what was my, let's say, high level goal or vision.
What did I want to achieve? What did we identify would be techniques to achieve that? Let's say I want to increase my return on investment or my customer experience by the CSAT score by 20%. Now that's a clear objective. Now getting in there, this next step would be how do we plan to accomplish that?
Again, this is where. Business has to partner. Business teams, leaders have to come up and brainstorm on how you can accomplish that. Maybe you want to reduce the average handling time in the call center, or you want to increase your first call response, first call resolution. Now, those are the factors that will be taken into next steps on how do you actually drive it.
Maybe what you see is you need to have more automation upfront. Maybe you can use. Bots in the front, which take care of the basic information collection and then route the calls over to your agents. We can also use self-help tools where [00:10:00] users or customers can go in and get the help themselves rather than having the calls routed for everything over to agent or for first call resolution, maybe self-help or maybe having a good knowledge base for the customer support agent.
They can look at that data and respond to the customer frequently asked questions or common issues faster so you can see a tie from top to bottom and see that overall journey of what was the dream that we want to achieve and how. We are actually achieving it. And with those numbers you can actually see, measure where whether you were actually able to achieve the outcome that we expected or not.
To me, that is a clear or the best way to have the vision and strategy tied together. So there are as less loosens as possible, as less big as possible.
Jonathan, I think I'm having some issue.
Jonathan Fischer: Thank you. I'm not, once we have a vision and strategy in place, how do we measure our progress from where we are to where we wanna be based on that vision and strategy?
Anshul Verma: Right. So, Just to be sure, can you just hear me now? I was having some audio issues. Yeah, we're good.
Okay. So yeah, I would say and this again is something that we help our customers into because there is really no good answer for that or best answer that applies to everyone. But the way we always look at any such engagement is to what we call is a agile way. We look at the overall engagement overall journey and break it down to smaller pieces.
So, We are not looking at let's say six months or 12 months engagement, which is very hard to quantify, very hard to measure how we are progressing and we are not able to with that journey. The, another possibility or issue is you will start seeing the actual result much later in the journey.
What we do rather is small bake it down to smaller pieces. We have smaller milestones so we can see how we are progressing within the journey. Then once these milestones are met, we release those [00:12:00] capabilities to the end users. So we're not go going to, let's say, stay in a build stage for 12 months.
Rather we'll build something in one or two months. Move it onto the end users, where end users start using it and we start getting the data, the feedback of what's actually happening. Is it giving us the right outcome that we are expecting or users are facing some challenges, which again is something the feedback can be taken back, incorporated, fixed, and then updated.
So it's a evolution journey where gradually you are evolving the solution, taking the feedback, the real feedback from the field and. Cing that feedback feedback back into the system. So the way we have seen this transpire is where the business can see very clearly how the solution is being shaped up.
What is working, what is not working. There are scenarios. There are times where something really looks good on paper when we are in a boardroom sitting and talking about ideas, but it may not work in real world. And that is a great opportunity for to take that feedback, change the approach, and go back and basically try different options to get there.
I'll give you an example. We were working with one of the call center client basically a retail client and working with their call center. They had a very specific problem wherein their agents were spending a significant amount of time on a very, you can say, reduce or less kind of questions.
So the task given to us was, how can we shave off couple of seconds from the call. And what we realized is that the majority of the time the agents were spending was on calculators. They were doing calculations to provide some financial numbers to the end customers. So we created an onscreen auto calculator for them based on the most frequently asked questions, and now with a single button click, they had all those calculations on their screen.
And they can basically also provide in different [00:14:00] variations, they can provide all those variations with a single button. And there is zero possibility of any calculation issues because they're not doing any fat fingers. It's all being calculated by the system. It not just reduce the time of the call handling, but also it increased the trust the agent had on the system.
So that basically opened, you can say the thought bucket, that was a moment where we start seeing more and more agents participating and sharing the ideas. So to me it's a, like a it, it's a lot of, you can say, opening up exciting opportunities, not just with the immediate effect that you see, but possible opportunities for future as well.
Jonathan Fischer: So it, it seems like, there's, there's a real need to customize your means of measuring what you're gonna excuse me, managing what you measure inside of your company for sure. The other thing that comes into play here is getting your people to utilize these systems. I mean, we've all had the experience that if you've been in business for very long, you have a great meeting with all the relevant shareholders, or at least the ones you think need to be there and everything is, yeah.
Yeah, let's do this, this, and this. And you inter, you know, implement it. And then are people actually using it in that way? So it's related to the previous question, but it probably requires its own set of actions. What would you say about getting people trained and actually using the CRM in accordance with the new Visionist strategy?
Anshul Verma: Yeah, that's a huge part of making your any engage. Any change management for that matter, is successful. And more so for CRM because as I said, oftentimes it's the, it's quite missed that the end users, let's say in this case call center agents or in terms of sales, the salespeople, field salespeople who are actually meet meeting people meeting customers or prospects doing the selling part of it.
And they have a lot of data, but then a lot of that data that they're providing is probably in Excel files or emails or on personal notes. And when we look at CRM being designed in boardrooms [00:16:00] and expect the end users to start using it, that that's where the disconnect happens. Because we don't know what's happening in the real world.
We're just making it the system. Based on what the leadership expects, there's always a disconnect between ground reality and that boardroom. And that's where I was saying that strategy has to include the end users. Not at the onset of the journey. The onset has to start with the high level goals and the vision, but at certain point where, specifically where we are defining the solution, the nitty gritty of the solution, that's where we have to involve some users, what we call as power users, who have lots of experience, lots of good ideas, and who have some kind of an entrepreneurial skills, who have that thought process on how to make a, you can say a process.
Involving those people early on where we can have their you can say inputs in terms of what is the current state model, what are the challenges being faced by users today, or even ideas. End users have tons and tons of ideas work on the process day in, day out. They have valuable insights in terms of what really works, what doesn't work, or what can work.
And incorporating that as part of your solution is a significant, significant, valuable asset. Missing that is, is definitely going to cause not just failures, but also you can say frustration when you launch it. Users at times we have seen users feeling it completely alienated with the whole solution.
They don't see that as their solution. However, if we involve them in the journey, they take ownership of that solution. It's kind of their baby. They are involved in that. There is a, you can say a personal attachment to that. So they are equally invested in its success and as a result you get much better outcomes.
Jonathan Fischer: So, having them involved from the outset is sounds obviously really key so that they are, maybe they're not often treated as primary stakeholders in these kinds of decisions and they need to be, but what about the ongoing training and enablement piece? What about keeping, you know, and the, there's [00:18:00] personnel changes and hopefully additions as you grow your company.
What are some best practices around that?
Anshul Verma: Yeah, great point. Training as I would say is like, again, a very important factor of the overall utilization or even usage adoption of it. First and foremost, a training is never static activity. You can't expect a user to be trained in, let's say two days or three days with the new CRM that we have brought in and expect to remember everything in six months.
That never happens. We all forget things. We only remember the things that we use and forget the things which we are not using. So in my view, there is always a you can say a recommendation to have a training and a retraining program wherein you can have the training, which covers the basic you can say functionality is cover all the things, and then you retrain the users.
Based on, let's say, how they're performing, it can be tailored to specific user sets, maybe certain salespeople who are not performing as expected or who are not engaging with CRM as much as you would expect, or based on your benchmark. But retraining really helps a lot. Second I would say is, again, part of what I was saying is a continuous improvement.
There are times where there are real good reasons why users are not able to use certain thing. I'll give you an example. For example, there were certain situations wherein we found that we created an awesome quotation generator for the customer for the end users, but they're not going to use it because in actual, when they generate the quotation, it has certain nuances that are not part of the process.
So, That divide exist, they will always be challenged by using for using the system. So that divide has to be closed, that feedback has to be incorporated so they can see that improvement and they can see basically, they can see that they are being heard and then use the usable features. Another area or another tip on that there would be using a good knowledge base or content.
Lot of [00:20:00] people often would, again, we forget how things are done. Specifically when there are certain complicated functionalities, it's good to have some content available to them. Salesforce has Trailhead, which is a free to use training library self training you can say tool where business users can go and learn more about how Salesforce works or how to use Salesforce effectively.
Similarly organizations can, content that they can launch and make it available to the salespeople, even within Salesforce itself. And that's going to be, make a significant amount of difference. And last, I would say, which is a bit more technical to implement, but gives huge value is incorporating and keeping the end user experience in mind while designing the solution.
There are times where the internal solutions, or at least in the past internal solutions, were not thought through from a user experience standpoint. We have had statements from senior leaders wherein when we talked about increasing or Im improving the user experience, we got the statements, something like they are paid to use the system.
So even if they have challenges, they should still use the system, which is not a really good. Strategy to go with because the more friction you add, the more likeliness of the system not being used or not giving the optimum value increases in this case a better user experience, not just improves the end user's life.
It also reduces at times, reduces your turnaround time, reduces your cost of executing the business itself and improves end customer experience, which is huge. So these are the couple of tips I would say, as part of our training and enablement for the users.
Jonathan Fischer: Great. And then also a big issue with any use of CRM is the quality of the data.
I know there's been a lot of conversation as to how widely that differs in what organization versus the next different ways to tackle that. I mean, I know one, one approach that probably works well is to have somebody that's basically their [00:22:00] job is to manage that piece. Make sure that it's up to date and it's quality and it's dispositioned as it ought to be.
'cause people on frontline sales are notorious for. Not being great on that front. Do you have recommendations on that, on the data piece?
Anshul Verma: Well, actually I would add a add a perception or my thought process on that is the way I've seen and interacted with salespeople specifically they are notorious because they have different intention, they have different goals.
Their goal is not to make CRM work. Their goal is to make sales work. Goes goal is to make sales, right? So anything that gets their job done faster and efficiently, they will opt for that. So they don't want to use CRM. Let's keep it, let's keep that perspective clear, right? They wanna make sales.
Yeah. CRM is, and that's where CRMs should be designed to help them out in their sales process. And one of the things we have seen as part of like, this issue is where The salespeople are, you can say, don't trust the data, and the whole situation or the whole solution depends on the trust.
So if they can't trust the quotation that is being generated or the price that is being generated, if they can't trust the, let's say customer insights that is generated the last year's worth of customer orders or customer trend, then the likeliness of them using the system goes severely down.
So that trust has to be established. And you're right, there are, depending on the organization size, depending on the complexity, there are times where you need to find who are looking at the data. That's one part of it. I would say. There is another part of data that comes in as the data integration or cohesiveness with the rest of the process we have seen wherein there are organizations having their c r m sitting in silos.
Their data has to be manually fed into CRM. The data has to be manually extracted and then pushed to their finance system or somewhere else, manually wasting a lot of hours, adding a lot of manual, you can say, possibility of manual errors [00:24:00] in there. So it's not just about maintaining the quality of data within the CRM, but I believe it's also about how do you integrate that process, that data with the rest of the processes, rest of the systems.
So your data is flowing in seamlessly. The rate at which your salesperson can see the real time data decreases, they should be able to see that data as fast as possible. If I'm seeing my customer's dashboard, which I want today, after a week, then it's not going to solve my purpose. I'm going to meet my customer today.
I need that data today. So that those aspects of speed, of data access, quality of data access, And the data availability across the systems, wherever they're needed are very important for the success of CRM.
Jonathan Fischer: That makes sense. Well, you mentioned the need to also evolve, iterate, not remain static with your c r m, what do you see on the upcoming horizon in terms of additional capabilities and the evolution of how enterprises can better utilize CRMs?
Anshul Verma: I think goes without saying, AI is pretty much on everybody's playbook right now. I think the way I see it at a very high level, there are lots of areas that can be broadened, but at a very high level, I see two areas. One, definitely what's changing in the broader marketplace. Space, one of them.
These new capabilities can enhance your current operations or maybe add additional, you can say capabilities of what you can do, what you probably couldn't do earlier, or was too costly, too tedious to do earlier. What new capabilities can be brought in possibilities can be achieved. The second I would say is more in terms of how you see the entire landscape within the organization.
We have had scenarios wherein based on certain assumptions or preconceived notions, CRMs were very limited to basic you can say lead generation or sales tracking. But what [00:26:00] happens after that? You're doing customer acquisitions, you're doing customer account management. There are lots of activities that happen after you acquire the customer after you make the sale.
And that's also part of the customer experience that should be brought in as part of CRM. So in, in a broader term, we call that as peripheral processes that are linked directly or indirectly to your customer engagements. It can be related to your sales engagements or customer service engagements But those areas should be looked at.
And as part of continuous value evolution, you should look at making those or making the dots connect as closely as possible so your salesperson knows let's say how, what kind of issues my customer is facing, even if they're not in customer service team. But it helps to make them aware of, let's say if customer has reported an issue with their shipment.
So when a salesperson goes and talk to the customer they are aware of it. They can empathize and maybe even provide some update on that. Similarly, when a customer a customer service agent is talking to a customer on an issue or something that gets resolved, they, there is an opportunity to cross-sell or upsell, or they can provide some better information to the customer.
So those are the touch points. Points or can be improved, and that's a continuous process. The more you look into it, there are more opportunities for improvement over there.
Jonathan Fischer: Well, excellent conversation on Shula. I wonder if we could wrap up with a few additional questions that might be a little bit more directed toward you personally.
First of all, I wonder if you could share in your own work with your clients an example or two of some of the transformations you've seen coming in, helping 'em with their c r M or other related services you've offered, maybe a case study or two. What's the most dramatic transformation that you've seen in your own work?
Anshul Verma: Yeah. Actually there are tons coming. On top of my mind I'll be brief about that. So we are working with one of our customers who was a retail organization and they were transforming their their whole call center system, landscape. And giving the same example. We started [00:28:00] off talking to their agents, set up the whole system for them, and then we realize that we are just, Peeling the layers.
This is just the first layer that we have been working on. And we realize that this customer service team talks to or works with further teams, which are behind the curtains, their loss prevention team, their credit team that can be brought into sales, c r M, and they can have that end-to-end view of the process even handover happening within the process within the CRM itself.
And that. I'll give you an example actually on, on that. We, at one point of time, we realized that there was a huge revenue leakage happening that nobody knew about just because they, there were not enough hands. It was kind of, somewhere in the past decided that nobody's going to work on that process.
And there was a huge revenue leakage that we were not just able to identify, but were able to create a process to track that going forward. And that team got awarded next year based on the revenue that we would be able to bring in with, you can say our small initiative over there and the transformation that we were brought, we brought in, or actually how we uncovered some unknowns in there.
Another example I would say for one of the organization was it's a utility organization pretty widely pretty widely used in us. And they had basically an old system wherein they had field technicians who they had to route they had certain products that they're consuming, certain equipments they're using.
They were not able to keep track of who's doing what, what equipments are being used, what equipments need servicing. So we utilized Salesforce and used the capabilities to basically have a much better field service management capability out there. With that they were able to predict easily about their field technician's usage or availability down the lane.
They were able to optimize their service appointments. They're able to optimize their equipment usage, have more [00:30:00] visibility on where they're tracking or where they're getting it. So overall, it was a significant transformation, as you can imagine, from tracking it in multiple siloed systems, and now tracking it in one place.
And system automatically suggesting, let's say, who your next technician should be, rather than somebody trying to make that determination based on certain factors.
Jonathan Fischer: That's really cool. Sounds like a really rewarding work to be in an shula. Last question then. What, why did you, why did you found Cytech?
Anshul Verma: Yeah, we do get that question. Actually I would say the first starting point for me was in, in the, it was when we started building solutions and we started helping our businesses. I love that whole thing. Practically speaking, we where I come from it's a small place in India, and we'd had as much opportunities.
So the, we came up with was, why don't we start something out of that place so we can give people jobs and opportunities in there? That was the seed of the whole idea of starting a company. But now as we are looking at it in a broader way, I think we are also looking at not just providing the opportunity to the folks over there, but also.
Also helping small and medium businesses where we see a huge divide in terms of the companies which can provide services to them, the right quality of service at the right price. And there's a huge gap in there, and that's where we are trying to fill that gap.
Jonathan Fischer: Well, I definitely think that you have demonstrated you have a great knowledge of the area and a lot to offer If the listener would like to go further and take a look at, have you work with, I mean, Salesforce is a, is definitely a one of your fortes, but you can work with Microsoft Dynamics and do general web development help with any CRM at all.
So if a a company owner or C-level leader wants to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to begin the process?
Anshul Verma: Yeah, actually they can reach out to our website and or even. Send an email to firstname.lastname@example.org. That would be the best way to reach out or LinkedIn. Alright.
Jonathan Fischer: Alright, well then, we'll, we'll put the the website there in the show notes. But Ansul, it's been a great conversation. I'm grateful for you coming, adding [00:32:00] value to the Evolve sales leader audience. I appreciate you being on the show today. Thanks, Jonathan. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Well, and for you, the listener, we thank you for once again being with us for this episode.
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